Playing as the USA in Empire: Total War Forum

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Playing as the USA

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Theenglishdude		#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1843 May 26 09 3:29 AM	The fact is, U.S. is only playable in it's own campaign because to a large portion of the fan base the American Revolution is evocative of the era. America simply wasn't a major nation from the word go. If the U.S. was playable from 1700, CA would have a hell of a lot of trouble in justifying why more established countries or emerging nations were not playable. If the birth of the U.S. could be dragged back 75 years, why not have Belgium & Greece's birth?? Then ofcourse, Italian and German unification would occur just before 1800 meaning it would have to be included. This would all mean the game's release would have been postponed and would take up more harddrive space. The decision to include America can be seen in either a positive light: allowing the players to play as a small emerging nation and lead her from survival to greatness, or, a negative light: ruthless commercial pioneering by C.A. pandering to the nationalist tendencies of an American fanbase. I choose to few it in the former, more positive light, and hope others do to. I'm glad you can play America from a certain point and I'm sure many others are as well. However, just because CA havn't been 100% historically accurate in the past, doesn't mean they should keep doing so or not try to meld good gameplay with historical accuracy. The U.S's advanced timeframe will provide some relief after starting 100 campaigns from technologically stunted 1700. Peace. Edited 1 time by Theenglishdude May 26 09 4:22 AM.
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darkacejr		#22	[url]	[-]
Posts: 126 May 26 09 3:43 AM	Theenglishdude wrote: The fact is, U.S. is only playable in it's own campaign because to a large portion of the fan base the American Revolution is evocative of the era. If the U.S. was playable from 1700, CA would have a hell of a lot of trouble in justifying why more established countries or emerging nations were not playable. If the birth of the U.S. could be dragged back 75 years, why not have Belgium & Greece's birth?? Then ofcourse, Italian and German unification would occur just before 1800 meaning it would have to be included. This would all mean the game's release would have been postponed and would take up more harddrive space. The decision to include America can be seen in either a positive light: allowing the players to play as a small emerging nation and lead her from survival to greatness, or, a negative light: ruthless commercial pioneering by C.A. pandering to the nationalist tendencies of an American fanbase. I choose to few it in the former, more positive light, and hope others do to. I'm glad you can play America from a certain point and I'm sure many others are as well. However, just because CA havn't been 100% historically accurate in the past, doesn't mean they should keep doing so or not try to meld good gameplay with historical accuracy. The U.S's advanced timeframe will provide some relief after starting 100 campaigns from technologically stunted 1700. Peace. My point exactly Theenglishdude. Why would you make the US playable from 1700, without making other countries playable from that start date that formed before the end of the game?
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NickF		#23	[url]	[-]
Posts: 76 May 26 09 6:49 AM	In my current game the USA emerged in 1717. but only the southern territories joined it. I'm playing GB, and it's now 1749. And the USA no longer exists. I gave the territories back to the 13 Colonies.
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Dionysius the Mighty		#24	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6686 May 26 09 6:59 AM Administrator	I'm not sure what more CA could have done. The US gets its own game mode, and gets a bonus chapter at the end of it where you can play the USA on the Grand Campaign map into the 19th century! And yet still people wonder why a nation that wouldn't exist for 76 years isn't playable in the Grand Campaign itself. As far as I've seen, in 1700 the prospect of a USA was almost unthinkable. Yes, TW games allow you to rewrite history, but the very first turn should always reflect the world at the time as accurately as possible. A few bits of license for gameplay's sake I can accept, but the inclusion of a country that was nowhere near existing would be too much. You might as well be able to build Gatling guns by 1720, or have France start as a Republic. It would be that inaccurate. Play the Road to Independence, then go back to its menu and select America - A New Nation. Then play on the Grand Campaign map to your hearts content. I personally think that CA have already done more than was expected to allow people to play as the USA.
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crisesza		#25	[url]	[-]
Posts: 652 May 26 09 7:11 AM	So I guess I was completely mislead that this game might be about playing the USA, not like there isn't a flag waving American Soldier on the cover of the box or anything..... That's because you bought it in the US. The polish version has the polish flag on it, UK has its own too, Germany has Prussian and so on...
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Elyrioth		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3302 May 27 09 12:20 AM Post-Captain	Since the 1.2 patch the USA emerges very early every game, always before the 13 Colonies are part of GB, even for the AI. Very annoying, they are the ONLY consistent one to rebel, every game, surely a bug. The USA has no place being playable from 1700, not without weakening GB faction, which was a vastly more important nation in the era (obviously). The "United States - A New Nation" is the grand campaign just from 1783 to 1810, it was the only feasible way to do it. Should be happy with that. Edited 1 time by Elyrioth May 27 09 12:23 AM.
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RavenX		#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 May 27 09 1:11 AM	The only thing that annoys me on the subject is if you're playing as GB and America rebels early you SHOULD be given the option to join and play as the emerging Americans, But ONLY if you're playing as GB. Every other country you play, when a nation decides to revolt, you are given the option of which side to join. This way it's semi-realistic to play as the U.S. before 1776. That should be the ONLY other option though to play as the U.S. on the grand campaign aside from playing RtI chapter 4.
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Elyrioth		#28	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3302 May 27 09 1:30 AM Post-Captain	RavenX wrote: Every other country you play, when a nation decides to revolt, you are given the option of which side to join. That's not actually true, you cannot change faction mid-game, if playing GB and Scotland emerges you do not get the option to join them, if you have a revolution to change government in your capital you can, you will still be the same faction with a different government and flag. Different things you cannot change faction mid game.
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Cam51		#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7 May 27 09 2:04 AM	Allow the players to play as the 13 Colonies, then when a revolution is triggered allow the player to side with the United States or not. Problem solved.
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Elyrioth		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3302 May 27 09 2:14 AM Post-Captain	If you want to play the 13 colonies, use the mod. It has no place being a independent faction playable from 1700. The whole point and purpose RtoI is to have them as a playable faction in a historical context without impacting the GB faction. The 13 Colonies start the game giving .5 their income to the GB faction, you would unbalance the faction removing this.
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Cam51		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7 May 27 09 2:37 AM	Elyrioth wrote: It has no place being a independent faction playable from 1700. Are you kidding me? They should have as many factions as possible playable from 1700. Have you even played another total war game besides Empire? they were not limited to this handful of "playable" factions. You conquer 'em, you can play as 'em. Taking control of 13 colonies would hurt the Brits a little yes, but so would the emergence of the United States. and besides, playing as a faction with a crutch is the most fun thing about the GC. I am currently playing as the 13 colonies using the mod, and its a great faction to play as. Although the games current state does not allow for revolutions to take place in minor nations, which there should be. I'm not turning this discussion into one about the 13 colonies, its about adding the USA(mexico, quebec, and other minor emerging factions) into the GC the most effective way possible. The way it would only take a few lines of code to do. **Make minor nations playable, and allow minor nations to have revolutions**
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Elyrioth		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3302 May 27 09 3:00 AM Post-Captain	@cam51: I have no issue with minor factions being playable. As long as they are real factions. I have played every TW game purchasing all bar M2TW on the day of release. There should not be playable factions at the expense of the era and another faction GB. They did not exist in 1700 so there is no place for them as a playable faction, there are far better candidates. CA need to get the 12 playable factions right and do justice to some of the "minor" factions before creating fantasy factions. I use "minor" loosely as some "minors" were large empires in the era. Using it in a mod is fine, those of us that dislike it can ignore it, however CA made the right decision with the RtoI, the 13 cols/USA has no place as a official playable faction from 1700 in the grand campaign. The RtoI allows you to play the USA in a historical context, there does not need to be anything else. If CA want to add extra factions to the GC add Portugal, Venice, the Mughals, Persia, Bavaria, there are numerous candidates. The only reason the RtoI is there has less to do with their significance in the era and more to do with their position in the PC game market! Having the Swiss Confederation actually on the map would be nice as well. Although the games current state does not allow for revolutions to take place in minor nations, which there should be. That is not actually true, Rhineland can rebel to Hesse, I have seen that occur I am sure there are other examples. Edited 5 times by Elyrioth May 27 09 3:43 AM.
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impar		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1198 May 27 09 3:13 AM	We should be able to play with established factions at the time the game starts (Portugal, Denmark, Mughals, Knights of Malta, Morocco, etc), emergent factions could be made playable via mods. Adding USA as a "major" faction is just a marketing move from CA/Sega.
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brusilov		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 May 27 09 3:15 AM	RavenX wrote: The only thing that annoys me on the subject is if you're playing as GB and America rebels early you SHOULD be given the option to join and play as the emerging Americans, But ONLY if you're playing as GB. Every other country you play, when a nation decides to revolt, you are given the option of which side to join. In a rebellion you can either support the rebels or the government. You cannot join a third faction - which is what the emerging nations are. If CA were to make this possible (swapping factions) then it should be all emerging nations - not just the USA.
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RavenX		#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 May 27 09 4:31 AM	Elyrioth wrote: RavenX wrote: Every other country you play, when a nation decides to revolt, you are given the option of which side to join. That's not actually true, you cannot change faction mid-game, if playing GB and Scotland emerges you do not get the option to join them, if you have a revolution to change government in your capital you can, you will still be the same faction with a different government and flag. Different things you cannot change faction mid game. Hmm, yes this is true. It would make more sense though. If you think about it, British rebels became Americans. They chose a new form of Government and made a new Flag. It would make sense from a game-play aspect if under those circumstances you could "change factions" as it were but by playing on after joining the winning rebels of a revolution isn't that exactly what you're doing? Changing factions. You may still be France, but now you're a different France. New Government, new Flag, still France. I think the reason why there are differences from choosing to lead a rebellion and not being able to play as a emerging faction are for game-play aspects really. Even though the American colonists were rebelling, they had no intention of returning to Britain to over-throw the king. When Scotland emerges their intention is carve out a piece of land to call their own (I.E. Scotland), not to kill the king and be the new England. There are varrious differences between rebellions and new factions even though some of the factions started by "rebellions". I'm not supporting the idea of a playable America before 1776 mind you. I'm just saying that under certain circumstances it would be logical to allow the player to start playing as these factions that were started by rebellions. For instance.... Scotland "emerges", you choose to lead the Scottish "rebellion". At this point you should have so many turns to take London or the rebellion should fail. If you win, Scotland has now just conquered all of England and a Scottish King sits on the throne. The English Union Jack is gone and replaced by the Scottish Flag everwhere England had land that did not rebel when London fell. How different would history have been if it had played out this way? The other odd thing I see is America almost always emerges way before 1776 in most of my campaigns. If they are so serious about not letting players play as America before then, then the AI America should not emerge before then either. However, I do like seeing America emerge early because I enjoy seeing how good or bad they do on their own. Personally it makes for a more interesting game some-times and I keep in mind that part of the point behind the Total War games for me has been the ability to take a country and Change History. If this game was a complete history simulator on rails I wouldn't like it (or play it) half as much. I don't see anything wrong with RtI Chapter 4, though. You play as the USA and you get the whole world. It is a little annoying everyone being "tech-ed out" by that year and by some of the other factions no longer being dominant by that date. The time limit and start and end date are irrelevant because you can keep going after the campaign end date (which I like). Edited 1 time by RavenX May 27 09 4:37 AM.
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RavenX		#36	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 May 27 09 4:48 AM	Wow I just had a mind storm. I know why there is a faction called "The Thirteen Colonies". To prevent players from playing as the USA before the start date of RtI chapter 4. Think about it. There was never a country in history called "The Thirteen Colonies". The colonies were always Part of the British Empire. Totaly under British rule up till the American Revolution. They added the faction and seperated it as a protectorate so that when it rebels and becomes America players can't choose to play as the American Rebels and change factions mid game. Also if players could do this there would be no point in playing the RtI campaign at all. Everyone would simply start as GB and force America to revolt before 1776. It makes me wonder though. What if you play as GB and then get the Colonies to join the Empire before America has the chance to rebel, then after the colonies are yours force a American city to revolt. That may (or it Should and would be cool if it) let you play as a new British Empire with the American Flag.
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RavenX		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 May 27 09 5:00 AM	brusilov wrote: RavenX wrote: The only thing that annoys me on the subject is if you're playing as GB and America rebels early you SHOULD be given the option to join and play as the emerging Americans, But ONLY if you're playing as GB. Every other country you play, when a nation decides to revolt, you are given the option of which side to join. In a rebellion you can either support the rebels or the government. You cannot join a third faction - which is what the emerging nations are. If CA were to make this possible (swapping factions) then it should be all emerging nations - not just the USA. Agreed.
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KaveIn		#38	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 May 27 09 6:19 AM	Cam51 wrote: Allow the players to play as the 13 Colonies, then when a revolution is triggered allow the player to side with the United States or not. Problem solved. Just what I was goin' to say .. Here Here ! Keep the 13 colonies "giving .5 of their income to the GB faction" until they revolt by this time u would have yr tec' etc up with the other factions ... Edited 3 times by KaveIn May 27 09 6:26 AM.
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MILLANDSON		#39	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1423 May 27 09 8:00 AM	RavenX wrote: Wow I just had a mind storm. I know why there is a faction called "The Thirteen Colonies". To prevent players from playing as the USA before the start date of RtI chapter 4. Think about it. There was never a country in history called "The Thirteen Colonies". The colonies were always Part of the British Empire. Totaly under British rule up till the American Revolution. They added the faction and seperated it as a protectorate so that when it rebels and becomes America players can't choose to play as the American Rebels and change factions mid game. Also if players could do this there would be no point in playing the RtI campaign at all. Everyone would simply start as GB and force America to revolt before 1776. It makes me wonder though. What if you play as GB and then get the Colonies to join the Empire before America has the chance to rebel, then after the colonies are yours force a American city to revolt. That may (or it Should and would be cool if it) let you play as a new British Empire with the American Flag. ... No. You can only side with rebels in a revolution. A revolution only happens when the capital province of your empire revolts. This means that, even if the 13 Colonies were removed and placed directly under the control of Great Britain in the Grand Campaign, you STILL wouldn't be able to play as the US. And I've done what you've theorised at the end of your post, and no, you can't play as the US if you own the 13 Colonies as GB, because, as I've pointed out above, revolutions don't work like that. Why won't people accept that the US didn't exist until near the end of the 18th Century, so they can't justify having you able to start as them in 1700?
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mandt		#40	[url]	[-]
Posts: 62 May 29 09 9:52 PM	I don't think that starting out as the colonies is a good idea. The colonies were quite dependant and loyal to GB for the first half of the 18th century. By the same token, I don't think that the emergence of the U.S. has to occur exactly in, or no sooner than 1776. The game is not intended to be a carbon copy of history. Rather, emergence/revolution should occur as a consequence of several factors such as the strength of the British armies in the new world, tax levels, etc. Ideally this would be close to 1776. Once this declaration of independance is proclaimed, the player could be given the option of playing the new U.S. faction or not.
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