Bishops are Bad

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sharpshooter	Bishops are Bad		Lead	[-]
Posts: 94 11/21/07 10:47:09	Tags : diplomacy, strategic agents, bishops, inquisitors, grand inquisitors, blackmail Use Bishops to control other factions. Stop other factions making allies. Keep your own allies. Target provinces you want to invade. Tell other factions what you want. Bishops are bad, in a good way. Screenshots illustrate. This is true for the Islamic factions too. This thread discusses Catholic religious agents in particular - Bishops, Inquisitors, and Grand Inquisitors. The same things are true for the Islamic agents, who have a differently developed set - someone post about them if you know. Like all posts on the forum, this thread is intended to generate discussion, and contributions, so if you know something about religious agents please share. This isn't claiming to be a definitive guide - just some things I've noticed. First a preamble - just to set the scene. Bishops are part of the set of strategic agents, who all do things that the guides and their unit descriptions don't tell you. Emissaries are Friendly - Bishops are not. They are used to say different things - they send different messages to the other factions. Bishops are Blackmailers. They can help you control the factions around you, and to have clear diplomatic relations that end up favouring you. I'll do a thread later on Emissaries who are incredibly useful - but feel free to do something about Spies or Assassins, or even Emissaries - I'm just saying I'll do one. The agents in MTW unlock new levels in the game - and all work together. A few things to do with Bishops, Inquisitors and Grand Inquisitors (Alims etc) not in the description: 1. Stop an alliance. You see another faction's emissary heading for your ally and you want to stop the alliance. Send a Bishop to the target faction's territory - preferrably to the King 2. Show other factions that you don't like what they've done - taken a rebel province, invaded an ally, proposed an alliance - send a Bishop/Inq/GI/Alim to their provinces, preferably the King 3. Target a rebel province or a faction province for yourself - put a Bishop on it. This tells everyone you want it (yes, the target, the neighbours, everyone) Expect this to cause some alarm. 4. Scare someone else off who has a Bishop there, or other agent. If they leave, they're not going to contest it. Good for claiming rebel provinces. Generally. Heh 5. Lower loyalty - a hostile cleric can cause a loyalty drop around 10%, I think When you've done this a few times, and are ready for more: 6. Be a bully - mess up the game of someone you don't like - tie up enemy resources etc. Yes, put a Bishop on his province, the more sensitive the better. Example: your neighbour is attacking another faction, or is getting attacked. Drop a line of bishops into his bordering provinces. If you're stronger than him he will definitely take notice, even if you don't see a visible effect. Get better results: 1. Send your best man. High valour is important 2. For Catholic factions there's an hierarchy: Bishops are hostile, Inquisitors are scary, GI's are a walking nightmare. I'm not sure how Inquisitors affect Islamic factions - they're obviously not subject to Inquisition, so probably nothing 3. Get your King's Influence up. No Influence means exactly that - no influence, even if you've got 40 provinces. If your King has no influence his agents have not notice. Watch the HRE and English Bishops return to their King when disaster, like a civil war, strikes. Some things not to do: 1. Leave Bishops on your ally's provinces if you want to keep them - think about this: what are you saying to them? 2. Threaten someone bigger than you 3. Leave your Bishops all over the place Some things to know: 1. You can use Bishops for errands like alliances and spying and lessen these effects. Just keep them moving. A moving and a sitting agent say different things 2. Threatening your friends, neighbours, enemies and allies is a trigger for the Blackmailer loyalty lowering vice 3. Other factions are doing this to you, to your neighbours, your allies - and of course, to your enemies. Look around. Factions who do this the most: 1. The great bully himself - the HRE. Watch his Bishops flocking about 2. Spain - especially to the Almohads 3. The Pope - especially to Italy and Sicily 3. Egypt - yes, that Alim popping in and out is telling you something. (He is also baiting a trap) 4. All factions do this to some extent, although the Danes do it least, I think. Obviously not much in this game is 100%, or it wouldn't be much of a game. Know this also - the game has a rich diplomatic language that all the other factions are using. Every single agent you see on the map is doing something, saying something, including yours. What are your agents saying to your allies, enemies, neutrals? Remember, all the agents work together as a set. A few screenshots now, just for illustration: *Why is the 4 Spanish Bishop visiting the Polish King, his ally? (Note: Spain at this time has a 5* Emissary)** It's obvious really. Spain wants to stop the Polish King accepting the Almohad alliance. It's no good Spain sending the 5* Emissary - this isn't a friendly visit. If Poland accepts the Almohad alliance, how strong will the Spanish / Polish alliance will be? Who will Spain choose to side with if Poland comes into conflict with another of his allies? Will accepting this offer earn some Polish general the vice of Hedonist? Note: the the Polish King is not on a Port. This is good for seeing such offers coming - gives time to think. **************************************************************************************** What are the chances of the Aragonese Emissary securing an alliance with Denmark? The Aragonese Emissary reports: "The Danish King has rejected the alliance. He listened to all of my arguments, but gave no reason for his decision" ************************************************************************************** The Aragonese wish to stop the Pope from allying with the English. What should they do? *************************************************************************************** The Aragonese Grand Inquisitor is not a man to be taken lightly. Even the Pope answers to God. The Pope declined the English offer ******************************************************************************************* What will happen next in Polish owned Greece? Will the neutral English army in Constantinople invade? If you guessed that the allied Sicilian army from Naples invaded Greece you guessed right. You can see the English Emissary being Friendly. You can see the Sicilian Bishop targetting Greece. Sadly no screenshot of this. When I clicked through from the save something different happened. ********************************************************************************************** Ok, that's the end of the post. I'm not sensitive, so if you see something I got wrong let everyone on here know. Likewise, if you've got something to add, or want to tell a story about trying this out let everyone know. You may have noticed that I haven't said anything about Cardinals. In truth I haven't figured them out. I know that Cardinals increase the rate of conversion, despite what their unit description says. I have never detected a rise in zeal, whatever the unit card says. I think they increase the chance of accepting an alliance, but this is hard to test smile Last Edited By: sharpshooter 11/22/07 10:23:44. Edited 3 times.
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highlanddave		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2031 11/21/07 11:37:46 Administrator	I have noticed that some provinces absolutely teem with agents. For example, I have seen maybe 8 bishops, 6 princessses in Khazar in a turn. If all the powers send agents to a province are they saying they are going to compete for the province? Have you ever noticed if before a crusade you can predict which territory they will go for because of a priest sitting on Antioch for example. What do princesses say? I have the guy feel they are one step friendlier than an emissary. I have also noticed that when I have a new princess, especially if I move her into foreign lands will get offers of marriage. I really need to pay more attention to who made the offer and why. One interesting but hard to fathom area is when I lose an emissary to an assassin, it is impolssiblle to link it to a given power. Somebody is upset at me being friendly, but who? I almost never get a princess coming to my territories, let alone offer marriage. Hmmm, I wonder why. Your whole direction to the game is one I have never really paid enough attention to. As I said in another thread, I supposed I am quite aggressive in my attitudes as I put priests everywhere. I am going to think on your examples and see what strategies as being pushed
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Danilonius		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10651 11/21/07 11:51:19	As I said in another thread, I supposed I am quite aggressive in my attitudes as I put priests everywhere Aye... I've always used an army of priests to reveal the map. Perhaps this is linked to my neighbours being so hostile? But I certainly think the diplomatic system is much more complex than it seems. That agents influence it in such a manner is a completely new line of though, but I like it. I have always been under the impression the AI will in many ways act according to your own actions. If you are playing conservatively, hardly conquering, hardly being conquered, prefering to build your provinces rather than taking more provinces, the AI will to a certain degree mimic this. If you are blitzing the map on the other hand, the game will live up to its name (total war!) and any hope for being able to solve things by diplomacy is lost.
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highlanddave		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2031 11/21/07 16:18:55 Administrator	I thought of another thing the AI I believe sees as aggressive. It isn't agents, no it is TRADE FLEETS. I have noticed that when playing France for instance, the English do not take kindly to your presence in the Channel. I expect the same is going on when I play Italy or Norman Italy. The Egyptians seem very likely to kill your trade fleets on their coast. My guess is they see this not as trade, but as a causeway for potential armies to land on their shores. So maybe trade is a double edge sword, big money but making everyone mad.
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Danilonius		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10651 11/22/07 03:04:27	Indeed. The presence of the fleets is menancing. I mean, don't you feel a bit threatened when as the Byzantines see Egyptian fleets around Cyprus? I always get the feeling an invasion is imminent (if they haven't bribed the garrison already...).
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highlanddave		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2031 11/22/07 08:12:52 Administrator	Ha ha, the ones that make me cringe and laugh is say playing Denmark and seeing Byzantine and Sicilian fleets in the North Sea. They have no possibility of connecting trade, so they gotta be threats.
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sharpshooter	Fleets	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/22/07 08:30:55	Hello everyone - and great to see all those posts. I agree - lots to think about with agents and fleets. Fleets are mostly seen as aggressive - they are warships and used for invasion. They lower the loyalty of provinces if enemy fleets cut them off - anyone with Ireland, Sardinia, Crete etc will experience this. But, it's not just the islands. Any province can feel cut off. Sometimes neutral but hostile fleets have the same effect. Even if neutral to the Byz, simply putting a fleet next to Rhodes can trigger a rebellion there - though not a big one. Playing the Byzantines, to control loyalty in the islands you have to connect them to Constantinople with fleets. Nowhere else will do. An enemy fleet cutting the line anywhere will cause them to drop loyalty. As the Byzantines, loyalty dropped in Syria, Edessa etc. when an enemy ship broke my line in the Straits of Sicily - that took a while to find. That carries right across the board - an enemy fleet in the Baltic causes loyalty drops right across the Steppes as far as Volgo Bulgaria. I think it's ok if you're allied to someone - not seen as aggressive. England tries to control the North Sea as well as the Channel - if you're neutral you're liable to attack there regardless. Try being Russia or Poland and getting out to trade if neutral. Danilonius is right about Egypt, generally but not always it tries to keep ships away from Egypt. Wouldn't you? There's lots happen with fleets - someone start a thread. Heh. Last Edited By: sharpshooter 11/22/07 09:52:49. Edited 1 time.
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sharpshooter	Assassins against your agents	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/22/07 10:08:21	I agree with Danilonius - the agent game is complex. It's usually impossible to tell who's assassinating your agents if it's not on your territory - yes. If you have an escape you may find out. But there is a reason, and after time you can work out who. The English will assassinate your agents in rebel Scotland, but the Pope may too if he doesn't like you. The French or HRE might. Sometimes the Russians fleet armies into Britain, so they might too. If you emissaries are assassinated in a province with border forts it is most likely that faction. They don't like you, even if you're trying to be friendly. If elsewhere, is someone trying to stop you attacking somewhere, maybe a rebel province. Have you upset someone by taking such a place? If your emissaries are getting assassinated either protect them in a port with border forts, or set up an assassin trap and eventually torture will produce an answer. Your king's influence usuallly drops one point temporarily when an agent is assassinated - important early in the game. One way is to set up an assassin/spy trap - watchtowers and a spy - and see who gets caught. This isn't 100% - someone may be using your port to get at someone else. If the enemy assassin has higher valour than your spy he may escape. In short, treat other factions as if they are like you. They want different things, and try to get them. They show this with a combination of ways - agents being one of them. If you upset them they may want revenge. Great users of assassins are the Byzantines, the Pope, and the Italians. Other factions use them, but not as often. You may be allied to the Pope, but if he doesn't like you he'll go after your agents. Similarly, he goes after other factions to help you - he helps Aragon attack Spain in Late this way. Last Edited By: sharpshooter 11/22/07 10:40:32. Edited 2 times.
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sharpshooter	Khazar and agents	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/22/07 10:53:03	Khazar is a key province, and very rich when trade gets going. Many factions have a big interest - notably the Russians, Turks, Byzantines, Egypt, the Mongols if around - and Poland and Hungary. Anything happening there attracts a lot of attention. If you've just taken it expect all if not most of those factions to be upset - even if allied to you. Bishops turning up may simply be spying, or showing disapproval of what's happened - or it may mean it's wanted. MTW challenges you to figure out what the agents are doing. I admire the fan shape that radiates out from Khazar - it presents a challenge if another faction, say Russia, holds the rest of the Steppes. How to unpick it without losing Khazar?
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sharpshooter	Princesses	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/22/07 11:05:44	I haven't figured Princesses out. Other factions mainly react to them as spies or targeting agents. You can use them to make a faction divert an army elsewhere - they'll move troops as if to protect the province the princess is on. Factions will often place a princess on a territory they want. But, sometimes it seems they are friendly. If you work this out let us know. For alliances, if another faction really wants it they send a princess, and my impression is that these are strong alliances. Otherwise, if they are open and availabe they place a princess somewhere you can see them, but not on your territory - its up to you to make the first move. Such a marriage will often trigger an alliance request a few turns later. Sending a princess out will attract offers especially early in the game, yes. In the middle game the best place to get a princess is from the ally of an enemy, or the enemy of an ally. For some reason your own allies don't seem interested. The enemy of an ally marriage will often trigger an alliance request, and gives you an opportunity to change sides if you want. If I don't accept I feel a bit embarrassed - like I've done something under false pretences. I'm not sure if changing sides reduces your "trustworthiness" to other factions, though. It should. One thing is sure - this is a very clever game.
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sharpshooter	AI reacting to your style of play	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/22/07 11:23:15	Yes Danilonius, I agree again that the AI reacts to your style of play. If you're attacking everyone early then all the other factions go to war with each other. If you attack one at a time the other factions barely make war at all - mainly the usual suspects, but they might take a long time to get started.
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highlanddave		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2031 11/24/07 14:27:52 Administrator	I like the idea of using agents more often and paying attention to what you are telling other alliances by their use. It may lead to slower games, more like turtling and may lead to the ability to play at higher difficulty levels. You may even be able to recover from mis-steps where you lose a critical battle, but use your agents to cover your behind. If you are turtling do you build bishops to be only on your own territory to make the pope happy? I would guess too, that to make sure your neighbors know you mean no harm you can put an emissary in each direction to bordering foreigners.
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sleepingocelot	Agent test game (English)	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 34 11/24/07 16:31:52	I started a new English game specifically to try some things that Sharpshooter suggested in this thread. On the southern flank I have Bishops in Navarre occupied by the Almohads and Toulouse occupied by the Aragonese. The Aragonese have drawn down forces till there is only one FMAA with the King. My King holds Aquitaine by himself. So far the Almohads are unresponsive. On the central front the French have already been toasted and reemerged in rebel Champagne. Holy Roman Empire attacked a few years ago and I am beating him back in preparation for taking Burgundy as my new front in the east. I have positioned two Bishops in Burgundy as well to show my intentions. On the north front I have staked out rebel Sweden with a Bishop and sent a Princess to the Danish King in Denmark for a marriage/alliance. All of my allies deserted when the HRE attacked a few years ago. You will also notice that there is an Alim from both the Almohads and the Egyptians in Friesland. Perhaps showing disapproval of my counterattack into HRE territory? Last Edited By: sleepingocelot 11/24/07 17:08:33. Edited 1 time.
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Duke of Earl	Friendly or suicidal?	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 357 11/25/07 09:48:02	I dunno...In my mind placing an emissary on foreign soil doesn't so much convey friendly intentions as much a desire to depart this world of woes. It's like painting a big sign on his back: "Assassin Target Available Here! Free of Charge! Dull Blades Accepted!".
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sharpshooter	English bishops and emissaries	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 11/25/07 11:20:15	Ha ha ha Duke. You're a trusting guy - not. If my emissaries are abroad I put them in places that have border forts. If they get assassinated I suspect the faction that has the province, and know they are hostile to me. I've had allies assassinate my emissaries on their own soil. I try not to do this - messy. I protect the best emissaries, and use throwaway 0 level ones to test the water, spy, sit about on neutral territories etc. I guess it's whether you want to include the political game in your play - you can win without it, but the game is richer for it. Ocelot, great series of posts. Lots of king talk between the English and Aragonese kings in your first screenshot. Aggressive English behaviour with bishops on Almo and Aragon soil in Navarre, and Toulouse. The Aragonese placate the Almos in Navarre with an emissary, but they're not placating England - the other Aragonese emissary sits with his king. Meanwhile the HRE wants peace with the Aragonese, and have 2 emissaries in Toulouse. I would guess the Almos and Egyptians don't like England (does anyone like this belligerent aggressor?) seeing their alims so early in Friesland. (Friesland is a great place for their visits). They may be trying to get English assassins to follow them to border forted provinces - and, of course, you have a bishop in Almo Navarre. The Danish princess in Saxony tells me they want it, or at least, don't want anyone else to have it. I often use princesses for targeting - they seem less aggressive than bishops.
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sleepingocelot	Update Agent Test Game (English)	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 34 11/25/07 15:57:52	South front-Almohads have wiped out the Aragonese. I was hoping to pick of Toulouse but they snatched it first. I have triple Bishops to show my displeasure in Toulouse, Aragon, and Navarre. Still technically allies at the moment. East front. I captured Burgundy per my plan. Two years ago I withdrew Bishops from Holy Roman Empire territory in what I hoped would be interpreted as an offer to stabilize the border at currently held territory. I think this is working because the Emperor just withdrew a Bishop from Friesland to Saxony (See north front screenshot below). And there are now two Princesses in Burgundy. I would like this area stable so I can focus on the Almohads. North front: I took the Bishops out of Rebel Sweden and Norway, opening these areas up to the Danes. I am offering alliance to the Danes but he may be too suspicious of my fleets for this to work. Still an Egyptian Alim in Friesland. What is up with the Almohad Alim in Saxony? Last Edited By: sleepingocelot 12/15/07 02:28:13. Edited 3 times.
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sharpshooter	agents and jpgs	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 12/01/07 12:43:39	I'm curious to know how this worked out - and if you're finding the use of agents is effective. Heh - it seems from these screenshots that the Almos don't trust you. Could war be coming? Just a minor point - if you save screenshots as jpg format, rather than bmp, they will be one tenth the size, and load a lot quicker.
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sleepingocelot		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 34 12/08/07 14:59:26	South Front: Almohads took Provence with a joint attack against the Holy Roman Empire, they brought more men so they got the province. It was a bridge fight because the Almohads attacked from Toulouse. They did most of the fighting so I didn't really mind. I don't remember if they attacked me or I just got tired of them this shot shows my attack to take Toulouse. Looks like the Italians are trying to get friendly by placing emissaries in Toulouse and Aragon. Central Front: Holy Roman Empire took the first opportunity for a backstab several years ago. I am in the process of slicing off another layer of provinces. Notice the inquisitors sent to stake some key Holy Roman Empire generals. North Front: Papal Inquisitor is being pushed out with cluster of Bishops (This worked next turn). Princess and Emissary trying to make nice with the Danes (Not successful for many years). Emissary and Princess in Rebel Silesia were trying for peace with Holy Roman Empire prior to backstab, now they are headed east in search of the Poles.
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sleepingocelot	Images	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 34 12/08/07 15:02:27	If someone would start a new thread with detailed instructions of how to use the in game screenshot, convert to .jpg, and upload to forum I would be glad to do that for future posts to help load speed. I am good with computers but I am not a Geek, so do not assume I know anything. I promise I will not be insulted.
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destroyerAA1		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 289 06/16/08 21:28:06	Hey to make this a little more helpfull, can someone explain a little more clearer on which units to do what? I.E: put emmisarries here to do this. Put bishops here to do this.. I'm just a tad confused.. or maybe I do.. Bishops are bad, use them on enemy factions, and put them on territories you are claiming? Also use them to push out Inquisitors? Emissaries are good, Send Emissaries to Factions you want to befreind, to earn your trust? Is this right in a nutshell, or am I missing something?
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Martok		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 750 06/16/08 23:26:22	First off, all agent types can act as spies in territory outside your faction's lands. They can see all infrastructure and any army units (including generals) in a province. But I digress; onto the specifics.... Emissaries can: 1.) Obtain cease-fires and alliances with other factions. 2.) Secure another faction's princess to marry into your own faction. 3.) Bribe generals. 4.) Remove titles from your faction's generals. Catholic Bishops & Cardinals can: 1.) Propagate Catholicism in whatever lands they're preaching. 2.) Obtain cease-fires and alliances with other factions. Note: They have a higher success rate with other Catholic factions. 3.) Help neutralize the effects of Inquisitors (Cardinals are especially effective), and prevent Catholic provinces from spiraling out of control due to overzealous Inquisitions. Spies can: 1.) Spur rebellion in enemy provinces. 2.) Open castle gates (thereby ending a siege immediately). 3.) Act as counterspies in your own provinces to improve loyalty. They also help capture enemy spies and assassins, particularly in provinces where you don't have a border fort constructed. 4.) Can try your generals for treason. 5.) Can (on occasion) discover an enemy faction is planning to invade certain provinces. Note: Their "predictions" don't always come true, however. 6.) Can reveal secret vices of enemy generals. Assassins can: 1.) Kill everyone. 2.) Help capture enemy assassins when stationed in your own territory. Princesses can: 1.) Be married off to another faction in order to secure an alliance. 1a.) Obtain a cease-fire and/or alliance if the other faction's male family members are already married. 2.) Be married to your own generals to increase their loyalty. Inquisitors & Grand Inquisitors can: 1.) Try any general for heresy, whether from another faction or your own. Note: Princes and faction leaders (including the Pope!) can only be convicted of heresy by a Grand Inquisitor. 2.) Increase zeal in Catholic provinces (useful for if/when you're getting ready to send a Crusade through the area). Note: Keep Inq/GI's in a province too long, however, and the people's zeal will fade. Alims & Imams can: 1.) Propagate Islam in whatever provinces they're preaching. 2.) Imams also increase zeal in Muslim provinces (useful for if/when you're preparing to send a Jihad through the area). I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things, but that covers most of what the various agents in MTW can do. Good luck!
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