Dragoons' Stamina

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kurkistan	Dragoons' Stamina		Lead	[-]
Posts: 825 06/01/08 13:22:14 Yari Ashigaru	Tags : cavalry It's been confirmed by CA that there will be dragoons, "mounted men that you can order to dismount and fire and attack the enemy as infantry. Then you can order them to mount up again and chase across the field on horseback." But CA has never done any cavalry units that could dismount before, so I'm wondering how they're going to deal with a dragoon's stamina. In other TW games, the horses stamina is all that we were concerned with, but dragoon's will essentially be two different entities, with two different stamina levels. The horses might get tired from galloping about for awhile, and the riders tired from fighting on foot, but the men and the horses would both rest while the other was losing stamina; the horses while their riders fought on foot and the men while they rode on their horses. So will there be two different stamina levels on each dragoon unit, or will CA just keep up with the single stamina level of the past? Also, will dragoons be able to fight for longer than normal units since either the horses or the men are always resting? Last Edited By: kurkistan 06/01/08 13:24:41. Edited 1 time.
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Dogbeard		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2453 06/01/08 17:44:22 Tribune	For simplicity's sake, I suspect they'll have the same stamina whether mounted or dismounted, though their stamina may not recover if moving while dismounted.
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kurkistan		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/01/08 19:12:32 Yari Ashigaru	While that would be easier to understand, I think that the possible confusion from an extra stamina bar would be worth it, since one of the greatest benefits of dragoons would be that you can deliver fresh infantry where you want them quickly, which wouldn't really work if the infantrymen are fatigued because their horses were running. I would be very disappointed if CA had just one stamina bar for dragoons.
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Parallel Pain		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4116 06/02/08 10:45:42 Administrator	Though it's not in-game but deployment phase, MTW had cavalry units that can mount/dismount. I also think it's a good idea for all units using some type of mounts, including horse-artillery, to have stamina for the mounts and stamina for the soldiers.
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ElusiveHonor		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 567 06/02/08 10:52:18	I think CA likes to pay attention to detail more than we give them credit for, and I don't think we should worry about this too much. For instance, a simple solution to this problem would be to have them have a certain amount of stamina while mounted, and another while on the ground. Or, what might be more likely (and more realistic) they will have one stamina meter that combines both the horse and the rider's stamina. For anyone who's ever rode a horse before, in a calm arena, its not just a matter of sit down, and hold on. I can't imagine what it must have been like to ride into battle, it must have been pretty difficult. Last Edited By: ElusiveHonor 06/02/08 10:55:25. Edited 1 time.
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Seleucos of Olympia		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4791 06/02/08 10:55:10 Tribune	There could only be one meter that shows the soldier's stamina when he is dismounted and his horse's stamina when he is mounted.
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kurkistan		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/02/08 11:47:28 Yari Ashigaru	ElusiveHonor wrote: I think CA likes to pay attention to detail more than we give them credit for, and I don't think we should worry about this too much. For instance, a simple solution to this problem would be to have them have a certain amount of stamina while mounted, and another while on the ground. Or, what might be more likely (and more realistic) they will have one stamina meter that combines both the horse and the rider's stamina. For anyone who's ever rode a horse before, in a calm arena, its not just a matter of sit down, and hold on. I can't imagine what it must have been like to ride into battle, it must have been pretty difficult. I've never ridden a horse before, but I do believe you when you say that it's tiring. I just can't imagine riding a horse being as tiring as fighting or marching on foot, so at the very least the riders' stamina should decrease at a far slower rate than the horses when they're mounted.
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Arquebusier		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 251 06/02/08 13:08:25 Landsman	I guess it would be knackering, due to the fact you have to control the horse.
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kurkistan	Knackering?	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/02/08 13:22:59 Yari Ashigaru	Could you please define that? Last Edited By: kurkistan 06/02/08 13:35:47. Edited 1 time.
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Tombles		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2854 06/02/08 13:42:59	It means very tiring.
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Livy		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 391 06/02/08 14:30:36	The amount this will affect the game play is so incredibly minute I hope to god they aren't wasting their time trying to figure this out.
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kurkistan		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/02/08 15:08:23 Yari Ashigaru	^I think that you underestimate how big of an effect this could have on the usefulness of dragoons. If you gallop your dragoons around to your opponent's flank, or to reinforce some regular infantry, but the soldiers are already fatigued when they get there, then the value of those dragoons would be very much less in E:TW than it should be. Melee combat was still very important in this period, and gun loading speed will probably be affected by stamina as well, so it would be disappointing to say the least if all of your dragoons that moved a considerable distance at speed showed up "winded" to a fight and contributed less than they should have.
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Livy		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 391 06/02/08 15:36:17	^ Well it is my understanding that galavanting around on horses isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do so what you're really talking about here is a rather small difference in the rate at which stanima will be decreased. Basically is it gonna make a huge difference if the dragoons stanima decreases 10% slower while they're riding versus when they're running/walking?
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kurkistan		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/02/08 15:53:48 Yari Ashigaru	My understanding is that its less tiring to be "galavanting around on horses" than it is to walk or run that same distance on foot, especially when carrying a musket, extra ammo, and all the other paraphernalia of war. While someone who rode a galloping horse may show up to a battle a little tired, someone who went the same distance on foot would be heavily fatigued, especially if he was running the whole distance to get there in a timely manner (still arriving less quickly than the slightly-tired dragoon). And even 10% more stamina, which I think is a low estimate, would be telling in a long battle.
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Livy		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 391 06/02/08 16:20:12	Alright, you win, I hope CA makes sure they've accurately modeled the different levels of fatigue experienced riding somewhere as opposed to running there on foot. Perhaps they could conduct an equestrian survey to figure out just how much more tired someone might be in the given circumstances, or they could even do it themselves with the state of the art physical conditioning center they've built in their headquarters.... or they could they could flip a coin realize most people won't really care, and spend the rest of their time making the diplomatic AI not suck.
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ElusiveHonor		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 567 06/02/08 16:40:30	I wasn't trying to defend the difficulty of riding horses to the general masses. What I meant to say by that point was this: In Medeival 2 Total War, a Knight had more stamina running around the battlefied because the horse had more stamina than a human being. That guage, however still decreased. Albeit, slower than a unit of spearmen, but it still decreased. What I meant to say was that I think a single gauge should be sufficient for both horse and rider. Give the horse more stamina since its no longer carrying an armored Knight, and we've got a winner. Sufficient stamina to fight on foot, and sufficient stamina to run away and recoup. Last Edited By: ElusiveHonor 06/02/08 16:44:26. Edited 1 time.
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kurkistan		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/02/08 17:22:31 Yari Ashigaru	Good point about cavalry having more stamina in general because they're not carrying knights in armor, but I feel that I must disagree with you on your other point. Consider this scenario with a single stamina bar: You just galloped your dragoons across half the battle map, leaving your horses/riders only mildly tired since there isn't any armor. You dismount your mildly tired riders and use them to fight some enemy units. The riders join with other infantry and a fierce battle ensues, to be is waged for about fifteen minutes, leaving your men exhausted and in retreat. The riders run back to their horses, seeking to get to safety, but the horses are now exhausted! Your dragoons try to gallop away, but their tired horses betray them when a fresh cavalry unit that didn't dismount runs them down easily, and slaughters the entire force. Is it really reasonable for the horses to be more tired after a long rest because their riders were fighting? Last Edited By: kurkistan 06/02/08 20:18:44. Edited 2 times.
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ElusiveHonor		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 567 06/02/08 17:44:09	No, you've got a point there. It really only makes sense to have two stamina values. One for the horse, one for the rider. However, I'm pretty sure CA will be covering this issue. As you said, its not reasonable to have your get away horse tired after you've been fighting. BTW, slightly off topic. Were dragoons light infantry? Or could they stand up to Line Infantry? I know their weapons were either carbines, or shorter muskets, and sabers and the like, but how were they used primarily?
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Dogbeard		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2453 06/02/08 19:09:34 Tribune	Light infantry were generally better trained, better marksmen and often in better physical shape than line infantry - in a shooting match or when maneuvering, the light infantry usually had the advantage. However, since light infantrymen where generally shorter and slighter of build than their line counterparts, they were at somewhat of a disadvantage against line infantry in melee, especially against the usually very tall and well-trained grenadiers. But, to answer the question, it would probably be fair to call dragoons - at least those that actually fought on foot - essentially mounted light infantry. At least some US dragoons were even armed with long rifles. Speaking very generally, a dragoon's marksmanship was usually better than his horsemanship and swordsmanship. Aside from the seeming oxymoron of foot dragoons (yes, they really did exist!), dragoons couldn't be expected to have much stamina on the march, being accustomed to riding. You do make a good point, kurkistan, about the horses. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to have parallel stamina meters that swap seamlessly between mounted and dismounted.
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kurkistan		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 825 06/04/08 16:32:11 Yari Ashigaru	Thanks for contributing, Dogbeard. Would anyone from CA care to add anything? Here are some sample posts: "Of course we already thought of this." "I knew we forgot something! You are truly brilliant, kurkistan, and we will be sure to include this in the game and you in the credits for this incredible idea." "Why would we ever do something as stupid as have separate stamina for horses and riders? The amount this will affect the game play is so incredibly minute that I hope to god we haven't wasting our time trying to figure this out checks yep, didn't waste any time." The smilies are, of course, optional. Last Edited By: kurkistan 06/04/08 17:16:02. Edited 1 time.
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Norwegian Knight		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 532 06/05/08 14:54:59	Dragoons are wonderful, I say they get less stamina then infintry on foot, but the same as calvary on horse.
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