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beingds2 |
Tips for using cavalry? |
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OK, I'm the same guy who posted the topic about cavalry being "broken" in M2. From the enormous response from people calling me a n00b and
explaining how they rock the enemy consistently with horse, I must have been wrong. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, but I am still confused. Are
there any tips you can give me (besides "try to get behind them when your infantry is engaged"... I know THAT), or links you can post to guides or
FAQs about how to use cavalry better as part of a mixed force? As I said in the other topic, I have no problem using one or two units of cavalry by themselves,
it's when I have infantry and archers to worry about that I get to feeling like I'm juggling one too many. Any suggestions?
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pugtm |
#1 | |||
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it's called a frontal charge by cavalry will decimate any unit that it hits.
here is a tutorial http://medieval2.heavenga...ideo_charge_1/index.shtml |
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gluteus maximus |
#2 | |||
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Moved to M2 board.
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ArmyCharger |
#3 | |||
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charge them all into the spears. Works surprisingly well.
as part of a mixed force, focus on your cavalry, not your infantry. Infantry don't require as much micromanagement. Carefully charge in your cavalry, follow with your infantry, immediatly pull out your cavalry after the charge, let your infantry take over the fight, and once your cavalry is back up to speed, charge them back in. this is the most basic West-Europian strategy. Cavalry should only be used for charging. they should only use their secondary weapons when: 1) slaughtering crappier cavalry 2) cutting down archers (if these archers are also good melee fighters, pull out and charge again) 3) swarming better cavalry even against other cavalry, a good charge can be lethal. When you see enemy cavalry targeting your cavalry with their charge, either charge back at them, of run away. Only run away when you still have time. |
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Leckan |
#4 | |||
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Having 2-4 cavalry groups to attack the enemy from behind precisely after they have hit your front with their frontal attack is devastating, through experience
and good timing you can make most of the times most enemy troops rout... If enemy artillery is unguarded when they are charging you can send very bad cavalry
just to interrupt them and cut them down, also to hunt enemy archers so they stop shooting. If an enemy cavalry group is standing still you can also charge
them with your lance, your lance is a superb weapon. And when you attack infantry enemy also gets hurt by the horse riding in to them, one horse can if getting
a good hit kill several infantry alone.
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darian1107 |
#5 | |||
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I'm sure many hav said it ere already when I recommend charging cav into spears. Works great, even when they r doin the schiltrom formation. NVR charge
headlong into pikes! Surprisingly, many medieval european knights made the same arrogant mistakes when charging into pikes head on. Guarantee suicide...
having 4 cavs in ur army is good enough for flanking and chasing down
routers, although u might wanna add in 1 or 2 light cav just for chasing down routers... especially when ur trying to keep up with the enemy general bodyguard
who turn tail... heavy cav just can't catch up with them...
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Peacemaker EAF92 |
#6 | |||
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Charge cavalry into spears? Not a good idea on Very hard. I find that a big mistake as I don`t like losing men needlessly. I only do this if absolutely
cornered and have no other choice.
I never do that. But I do do the other things. I usually have 2-4 cavalry if possible. I always try to flank by sending 1-2 cavalry around while my footsoldiers hold the line. Armycharger is right that your troops can be left while you focus on your cavalry, checking on your troops every now and then. Watch the unit flaf incase a white flag pops up or you see `wavering` so you can jump back if necessary. Anyway, I charge them in to the sides or rear (rear preferred for zero casualties), wait until the damage is done (the charge finishes) and immediately pull them way out for another charge. Check on troops meanwhile. Rinse repeat. If cavalry get caught in melee or seem to flounder while preparing for a charge it sometimes help to `open formation` and `close` and that usually gets them on track. |
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kingfj |
#7 | |||
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I find the recommended strategy of charging in then withdrawing and recharging doesn't work that well if you want to keep your horses. Sure you get the
charge bonus and the effect is devastating on the enemy (not spears of course) but on withdrawal you risk several losses as you turn tail, I have even had cav
rout - they think my clever run away tactic is actually evidence that me, the general, is a big scaredy (sic) pants, you can even get a vice out of it! I have
even lost a general using this tactic.
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HaakonIX |
#8 | |||
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If not faced with spearmen, you could charge your heavy cavalry in a wedge formation through the enemy lines and then quickly follow with an infantry charge.
your horses will go right through the line and make a big hole and they will be with the archers/light infantry behind the line. If coupled with a flanking
move, this could cause the center of your opponents line to rout.
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Frank Dale |
#9 | |||
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On the use of melee cavalry in M2TW I will present here an overview of what I have learned on the effective use of melee cavalry. This will mostly cover field battles, though I will also give some pointers on using cavalry in settlements. I posted something like this months ago but this is totally re-done, as I've learned much more since then. I don't mean to sound authoritative like I'm some war master, for I too am still learning new tactics all the time and I'm as fallible as the next guy. That said, much of what I've learned here is from making serious efforts to get better at using cavalry, including reading many of the posts here by the vets. My intention is not only to help "beingds2" with cavalry use, but to generate further discussion on the topic and get more ideas myself. There are stylistic differences for everyone on how they like to conduct battle (e.g. some of us try to keep our casualties to a minimum while others don't care), so it is inevitable that some of my personal style of play will be at odds with other players reading this; nonetheless I consider myself objective, and most of what I lay out here applies to most field battles. Any comments, disagreements, suggestions on this post are encouraged. One more initial comment: @ beingds2, if you feel overwhelmed trying to handle multi-unit armies, make heavy use of the pause key. I still do from time to time, especially for huge battles but also any time I'm trying to be careful and clever. I find when I pause and study things I come up with some good tactics I never would have thought of before. Anyhow I hope my pointers here help you… 1) Know your units. Learn the strengths and weaknesses of all the cavalry units you'll be using, as well as all the units of the enemy. Unfortunately just reading the unit info sheets isn't enough; there are things like mental aspects, heat fatigue, terrain type modifiers, mount types, and special attributes, that you can mostly learn only by studying the EDU (export_descr_units file), and to do this you have to unpack the game files. It's a hassle, but well worth it. However there is a reference that has already done this for you. Download a pdf file called FAUST (Faction and Unit Stat Tables), version 1.3. It doesn't have everything, but certainly far more than you'll learn from the unit info sheets alone. Link: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93740 2) Flanking and envelopment. It cannot be overstated that the main advantages of melee cavalry are mobility and charging. A full strength, upgraded, elite cavalry unit can charge head-on into a heavy infantry unit's front line and still do amazing damage- I've seen as many as ¾'s of the enemy unit die in that first hit if you do everything right- but they will do even more damage when you are hitting them from the flanks or rear, and if you surround ANY enemy unit, no matter their discipline and morale, they will quickly become shaken or wavering. Even if they don't retreat right away, scared men make poor fighters, and that means less casualties for you. Other benefits of envelopment- sending one or two fast cav units to take care of those damn catapults, trebuchets or cannons that are raining fiery death on your men. When their army begins to crack and run- which will happen very quickly when you have them surrounded- you have hundreds of riders right there behind them
to "capture" most of them, and gain plenty of experience that way too. Even though heavy cavalry are relatively slow, their mobility is still a huge
advantage on any battlefield.
3) When to charge. In field battles, one of the best times to charge is often right at the beginning, when the enemy's front row is laden with a bunch of pesky missile troops. This is where Mailed Knights (or equivalent), or any of the lighter melee cavalry [Mounted Sergeants, Jinetes (I know, more of a missile cav unit)], are used best. This is because those units are faster (either riding a "heavy horse" mount or one of the pony types), and so when those crossbowmen or archers try and flee from your charging cav, simply put, they'll never make it. There's few things as frustrating as trying over and over again to hit fleeing missile troops with your ultra-heavy cavalry, failing 4 out of 5 times. The much heavier damage of the really heavy cav units is better used on enemy infantry or other cavalry, but your swifter cav will still do great damage to missile troops in a charge. After taking out some or all of their missile troops, you want to pull right back while your infantry still approach. At this point very often the enemy's infantry line is now exposed, and probably approaching fast. If you like, you can now charge in with your heavies, and it's quite possible if you do everything right that the battle is now nearly over without need for your infantry at all! If you instead opt to send in your infantry, now is the time to flank. This envelopment is also a great way to kill the enemy general quickly, who often is hanging in the very back ranks like a REMF. It seems obvious but never charge head-on into polearm troops, and try and avoid doing so against enemy spear units. These are reasons you want to get your heavy cav around the enemy's main bulk and you will be poised for a charge-kill massacre. If the enemy has several missile cav on the wings, send your own lighter cav out to attack them to keep them from firing on your heavies. If they have lots of melee cavalry of their own and you do as well, try and envelope them same as with infantry, far out away from the enemy infantry. If they have much more cavalry than you do then use your cavalry only in defense, helping out where needed. Never attempt to charge when some friendly units of yours are already in the way, the charge will completely fail. 4) How to charge: preparation. If you have the luxury of setting up for a long-distance charge, you want to spread out your cavalry's width to give a maximum number of lances/spears bearing down on the enemy. Spread your cavalry to only 2 or 3 ranks deep, otherwise the men in the rear ranks of a charging unit simply never have a chance to hit the enemy while moving fast, greatly reducing your kills. Sometimes in the heat of battle there is no time to re-form your lines; for instance when I'm sending heavy cavalry in a flanking motion I don't usually bother with stopping them, making them form up to 2-3 ranks again facing the enemy from the new position, and then charging……all of this takes too long and battle conditions change too fast. So in this situation I tend to put my cavalry in a square formation. That way, any direction they charge in there will be a decent number of hits. This is ideal for large cavalry battles as well, where units are constantly flanking and surrounding each other; there is simply no time to change the number of ranks and orientation. Use your judgment based on battle conditions. Note- it is perfectly acceptable to have two cavalry units on top of one another (occupying the same space), just make sure their front ranks are about on top of each other. Sometimes I do this on purpose for extra hitting power in a particular area, or to lend support to a general with a small bodyguard. You do not want to attempt a charge into a unit that is moving fast in a lateral sense with regards to you (perpendicular). Meaning if I'm attacking with some knights some enemy infantry that are running at full speed from right to left in front of me, it becomes a worthless charge. This is because once locked into a charge, your units will move almost in a straight line and will correct for a moving target very little. By the time they get to where their targets were the enemy is no longer even there, you might kill five stragglers at best. This is especially the case with fast foot units like many archers. Try to make your charges more in line with their own line of motion, preferably from the front.....the higher the closing speed, the higher the damage, just like car accidents. ;-) For charging enemy javelin/missile cavalry, catch them first with some light cavalry of your own. Then while they hold them in melee, wheel your heavy guys around and crush them from the sides or from behind. For enemy generals out in the open, hit him from ALL sides as quick as possible, the quicker he dies the better and those two hit points make his unit very tough to kill off quickly. 5) How to charge: execution. You need to start off a charge from a certain minimum distance from the enemy. Most of us figure this out quickly, but it is very important that you give your cav enough distance. Distance not only makes sure that they charge, you need to make sure they are able to build up full speed, and heavy cav take a long time to do this. Another reason- if you give an attack command from when your cavalry are standing still, and they are close to the enemy, often there is a sort of bug where the charge will start and then simply stop, or only a few men in the unit charge while everyone else stands still. Yet another reason for spacing- you'll notice when you give heavy cavalry a move or attack order, at first it takes them a LONG time to actually start moving their butts. Some will move before others do. This causes the formation to break up a little. But then, once they get moving, notice as they gain speed they start to reform proper ranks again. It is important that your men are in close ranks, neat rows, before they hit with a charge. Learn to get a "feel" for the distances needed, it will pay off. Some people don't seem aware so I'll point out what might seem obvious- make your attack command a double right click, not a single click. Always double click. We're trying to encourage speed. :-) Another point about being already in motion when the charge order is given- it's okay to be moving laterally or even away from an enemy and then give a
charge order. I've noticed if you give a charge order right when your men are coming to a stop, they often won't charge at all, or a few of them charge
and the rest stand still; try and time the attack command while your cavalry are still galloping in any direction. Let them build up momentum perpendicular to
the enemy or away from them, and then charge while they still have momentum. Of course for frontal assaults build your momentum towards the enemy.
If the enemy is still high on morale, high in numbers, or other deadly units are about to hit your cavalry back, pull your men out of there. Have them charge somewhere else, or pull far out if you're going to charge the same place again; you need to make sure ALL of your cav unit's members have freed themselves from the enemy and are a decent distance away again otherwise they will not charge but will merely "run into" the enemy. There are ways of minimizing your cavalry getting some of their members stuck in amongst the enemy while you try and pull out, but sometimes it can't be helped. If the enemy is about to flee, or you're fighting a mass of wimpy units (peasants, skirmishers, most missile troops), then leaving them in melee is perfectly fine if you want to. But if you can pull back and charge again to kill another hundred men in an instant, why wouldn't you? Again, use your judgment. 6) Cavalry in melee. I find the way units in melee tend to spread out backwards, so that only a handful of men are actually fighting, very annoying. Add to that the way individuals in a cavalry unit sometimes go a LONG time without taking a swing at the enemies right next to them, and you not only have aggravatingly-long fights that tire out your men quickly, it is simply a huge waste of your units' capabilities. So……….as I often do with infantry as well: Give your cavalry a movement order so that they begin to move through the enemy unit- doing this with a double right click "run" command- then once they're mixed in with the enemy somewhat give an attack order again. Warning! Only do this in certain situations- I would certainly not move my general's bodyguard into a bunch of a Dismounted Noble Knights, or anyone with two-handed weapons or axes for that matter. Any unit of yours that is moving somewhere that comes in contact with an enemy unit will stop moving and go into a sort of half-effort fighting mode, so you have to: a) initiate contact first, b) give the move order through the enemy, c) wait awhile until your units are mixed into theirs, and d) give the second attack order. There are several advantages to doing this with heavy cavalry. One is that you bring most of your men's secondary weapons to bear on the enemy instead of just a handful of men in the front while the rest hang back and watch (and get tired from watching!). Secondly, this always "wakes up" your cavalry from that stupor of just standing there for a long time, not taking a swing, not doing much of anything. It forces them (all of them) to immediately take a swing at the enemy the moment you give the attack order. (so you should do this multiple times within a fight.) Thirdly, mounted units I believe have a bonus against all foot units except spears and such, or it might be that the foot unit gets a penalty fighting against cav. If you're willing to risk a few more casualties, using your cav in melee this way will do wonders. It kills off the enemy foot units VERY quickly (especially defenseless archers and the like!). It makes the enemy route much quicker. It keeps your cav from getting fatigued way too soon. It makes your killing expedient and that in turn frees up your cavalry to be used elsewhere if there's a need…….there's usually a need. Lastly, in many situations your cav will pour around the enemy unit like water around a rock, so that some of your cavalry are now hitting the enemy from the sides and back……again, getting more kills sooner. Just be careful what unit you attempt this against. I will sometimes be quite bold and do this in a general vs. general battle, if my man is more armored and experienced and I have greater numbers. Otherwise it's near suicidal. You need to know what your cavalry's secondary weapons are, the attack values, whether they're armor-piercing, etc., to help you decide when cavalry
melee is worth it. The unit info sheets don't show you the secondary weapons' properties unless the primary weapon is a missile weapon. For instance, I
only recently found out Norman Knights have a much higher attack value in melee than most, and Teutonic Knights have a 12-attack armor-piercing mace! I would
therefore leave those units in melee more often. (note- my stats/experiences are based mostly on Retrofit Mod / Kingdoms stats, where cavalry have been toned
down but are still ultra powerful.) On the contrary, many of the Mongols' cavalry have armor-piercing maces, so you definitely don't want prolonged
melee with them if possible.
Battles are quite dynamic. If the enemy changes tactics, or a situation develops where you no longer surround the enemy, pull away and keep adjusting, even
pulling completely away from the enemy for a moment if necessary- to make sure you're always the one doing the charging and enveloping. If you notice
you're sending a cav unit into a charge of the enemy's rear formations, into a situation where they themselves might soon be sandwiched between two
enemy units, then have another of your cav units be ready to support them from further out by sandwiching the sandwich-er, if you follow my meaning. Never
leave your cavalry open to attack from multiple directions, this will get them killed very fast especially if much of their armor rating was from a shield.
Your cavalry are the last units you ever want to "throw away" on the battlefield. There are much less of them per unit for a reason- used correctly
they are highly efficient enders of lives. :-D
Pay attention whether or not the enemy unit you want to charge has the "bonus versus cavalry" feature. If they do, you should only be charging
their flanks and rear (and NOT leaving them in hand-to-hand!), or if you're confident and can afford some casualties hit them from the front AND sides but
make sure your numbers are so great that the enemy freaks out and runs soon after the charge. A general's unit with full armor and weapon upgrades and
maximum experience will annihilate a row of spearmen head-on, but will still take higher casualties than usual of their own.
10) Also as with all other units- upgrade armor and weapons whenever you can. It helps. 11) Capturing the routed. This is the main means by which I gain huge experience for my cav units. Capturing hundreds of fleeing enemies, you may choose to let them go after the fight but you get to keep the experience. I usually will soon have a few cavalry units with silver or gold chevrons, and those 2 to 3 extra points of attack and the higher morale are always desirable. Heavy cavalry are not very good at chasing down fleeing rats, but have them do so anyway when you can. 12) Make use of the best cavalry unit at your disposal- the general! I find about 9 out of 10 battles I will have him doing some serious fighting/killing
instead of sitting in the back ranks, just cuz the General's Bodyguard units are so tough, and for the command boost of having my general near the
fighting. I do occasionally lose a general this way, but it's undoubtedly worth it.
Charging is mostly out of the question in a settlement, but for those of you that want to try it, it is possible. I figured out that the reason cav don't usually charge in the streets is because they are normally given a formation width which is much wider than the streets themselves, so it's like the streets are funneling your units into a narrower shape than they want to be, and somehow this prevents charging from working. But if you give them a formation that is less wide than the streets themselves- meaning like 3 to 4 very long columns- they will successfully charge if they have an unobstructed path to the enemy, i.e. are not turning a corner. Also you can often charge in the town square, especially for huge cities where you have lots of space. The main use of cavalry in city fights is their mobility. You want to have them riding around city blocks and trying to come up behind enemy units, sandwiching them between your cav and your infantry. Most enemy units flee almost instantly when I do this, even when there are many hundreds of them. That leads to another reason you always want a couple of cavalry around- to chase down all the routers. No point in making hundreds of enemy archers bug out and flee to the town square, only to have them firing thousands of arrows at you later when you could have captured them. When the AI has many siege units like trebuchets, cannons, etc., I use some fast cavalry to take those units out before they are allowed to set up and start setting my whole army on fire in the narrow streets. The javelin type cavalry are wonderful in this role- fast moving and decent in melee, and able to put enemy infantry under missile fire to make them break sooner (and then capture them!)…….not to mention the wonders that javelins do against enemy generals. Also if you're assaulting a city with lots of missile units in it, and very few spear units, lots of cavalry come in quite handy for a complete slaughter-fest. ;-) Another city-assaulting tactic of mine is to sometimes use an overwhelming number of heavy cavalry and just accept higher casualties than usual. If you break the enemy gates and just pour in a MASSIVE cavalry force, even against spears, you will make the enemy break rather quickly unless they're lead by a good general. I'll take heavy casualties from things like boiling oil, enemy spears, and heavy infantry with ap weapons who don't flee so fast, but the battle will be over quite soon once I route them all. When the enemy is surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of cavalry they tend to #$%% themselves rather quickly. Yet another tactic of mine, when I'm assaulting a city but the enemy has brought up a reinforcement army, and I have lots of cav. Based on the campaign map you know where the enemy reinforcements will appear. Before the start of battle place all your cavalry and your general close to where the reinforcements will enter the battleground, and then while your main force is busy taking down walls, towers, etc., have your cavalry charging and destroying the reinforcements. This prevents having to fight the reinforcements later in the city as often happens. For sally battles where you're sallying out, obviously having a larger contingent of heavy cavalry will be very much to your advantage. For defensive city battles, you can often send out your cavalry to destroy the men on the enemy's catapults, trebuchets and such, then beat a retreat back into town, forcing the AI to attack with their ladders/towers and rams only. Another tactic is to send your cavalry out the other gates, and come riding around the outside of your walls. Wait until the enemy is trying to push through your gateway or wherever and then hit them right then from the sides and behind………instant route. |
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Leckan |
#10 | |||
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Holy mother of god! That's the longest post ever.
Hmm to use the pause option, good idea :P I haven't ever used that ;) @ nr 7 Unless I clearly overwhelm my enemy I am kinda screwed since I never keep a reserve otherwise :) And by the way, cavalry is great for taking away an enemy reserve. Attacking the reserve when they are charging your infantry to quickly rout them (if they havent got "good morale") is also a good idea, then you can quickly charge your cavalry either in to the enemys behind or chase away some archers :)
Last Edited By: Leckan 12/30/08 04:30:20.
Edited 1 time.
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Frank Dale |
#11 | |||
Leckan wrote:I know, I think I'm insane. I spent the past 3.5 hours writing it, lol! |
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Peacemaker EAF92 |
#12 | |||
Leckan wrote:
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Frank Dale |
#13 | |||
Peacemaker EAF92 wrote:I agree with you, to a point. I definitely agree the AI needs all the help it can get, though I find other ways to "assist" it. One of my biases in writing what I did is that I strictly play against the AI, no human v. human, I know for certain I would get crushed attempting that. (based on other online games.) Some people just don't think on their toes as well as others. I personally don't pause that often, but only because I am now comfortable with the flow of battle, having learned all the basics and such. I very often try and handle everything at once as it's happening, but it's partly out of a laziness that I just don't feel I should have to pause if I can help it, certainly not out of an attempt at realism. Realistically it would take so long for my general's orders to be received by disparate units all over the map, combined with the fog of war the gameplay simply wouldn't be enjoyable if made realistic. Many of the tactics I have learned on my own were from pausing, studying things a moment, and then suddenly getting an idea. If I never paused, my mind would probably never have had the chance to learn much of what I have. Never using pause is a play style choice, but it should not be some hardcore rule that keeps a newcomer from learning the basics, studying the game mechanics and figuring out how to conduct battle effectively. One can learn to be quick-reacting later when they're more comfortable with the game. |
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Peacemaker EAF92 |
#14 | |||
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I`m not telling anyone how they should play the game just as I assume you`re not. I only advise what i felt worked well for me and was more enjoyable, it may
be for others.
I guess I was lucky because when I started on STW I played that for years without realising i could Pause, then went onto MTW still not realising i could pause. If I needed a break I just hit escape which stopped the game. But then, I never found myself thinking `This is too hard, is there a pause?` Only when I came to THIS forum for the first time did I, to my surprise, see that a lot of people, most apparantly, paused their way to the whole thing. Still surprises me as I never saw it as that hard. I advise it because I find it way more enjoyable and I believe pausing is a crutch that once you get used to it, you`llfind very hard to get out of. It`s a bit like learning to fly a flight sim with stalls and spins on rather than off or a car sim driving with manual gear rather than automatic. Start with it on and eventually you can`t go back. I guess it`s personal preference, but I prefer the dynamic flow of battle, especially when the battle ebbs and flows and quick decisions are needed. The old `it wouldn`t be enjoyable if made with realistic commands` etc argument is a subjective view that could run for 10 pages and I can`t be !!@!@ with it on a forum where no one backs down anyway(as my blood and gore argument in another thread shows) . Not worth my time.
Last Edited By: Peacemaker EAF92 12/30/08 07:07:01.
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daelin4 |
#15 | |||
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Whether you charge/withdraw or charge/melee, you'll suffer losses. Its possible to not lose men doing either way, and possible to lose them all very
quickly as well. Some cavalry units fare better doing the latter, like late-game knights, but units like Hussars will drop like flies if they so much as stick
around an instant longer after a charge. Even cavalry has their own sub-hierarchy of roles. Unless you can't do otherwise, don't charge Mounted
Sergeants into the front lines, nor use knights to chase routers.
I usually pause the game when its laggy, so I can do commands. When its flowing nicely I forget about the pause feature and watch in horror as my idiot troops waltz into the fight rather than run away |
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Frank Dale |
#16 | |||
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I really need to stop posting novels like I've got nothing better to do...........oh wait, I don't have anything better to do. I'm at work.
Peacemaker: I understand your concern about pausing being a crutch, but for me it was never a problem to break away from using it the more comfortable I became with the game. Like I said I now only use it very rarely in the midst of battle, like when I've got uncertain fights going on in 4 different places on the map (not common but it happens.) Also I was tutoring my friend once while he learned the game, and I was basically giving him pointers during a big siege defense. On at least two occasions while he paused the game so I could explain something, those extra seconds gave me totally new ideas I'd never thought of before, and we applied my new tactics right then and there with success. If I never paused, I would never come up with some of my tactics on my own, gleaning much of my learning only from the forums here. I'm simply saying that a lot can be learned early on by taking your time and observing things. The distractions of constant battle doesn't allow you to observe as much. I'll play the antagonist and present 3 situations where using pause does not take from the realism of the game, IMHO: 1) I'm attacking a huge city. I've got 4 siege towers and 2 rams. Units all placed in front of their respective targets, the walls and the gate. Start battle. Immediately my units are under fire from the towers (let's say....flaming ballista bolts!), and I want to get my rams and my doused-in-gasoline siege towers in motion as soon as possible lest all of them burn up. If I do not pause the game, I have to give each of those 6 units their order individually, one by one.........by the time I've gotten around to ordering the 6th unit it has already taken a LOT of missile fire, and still isn't yet in motion. Those are precious seconds which might make the difference whether or not that ram/tower makes it or not. Now take that same scenario, but the moment I hit "Start Battle" I pause the game. I can now give each of the 6 units their individual orders, which can represent in the "real" world that commander simply giving the signal, "Attack." As in, all of you, attack as we planned, right now, simultaneously. 2) I do the same thing when I have to order my archers/crossbowmen to fire at a specific target. Say in some field battle there's an enemy general out there who I want dead ASAP. I've got 10 Pavise Crossbowmen on a small hill, behind my spear line, the enemy general is closing in and is now in range. Do I turn off fire-at-will as a group command, and then right click on the enemy general also as a group command? Of course not, as we all know giving group attack orders to missile units makes them attack whatever target THEY decide on, likely the closest threat. So I will have to select each crossbow unit individually, and one by one tell them to fire on that general. Probably by the time I get to the 7th or 8th unit the situation has changed so much that I need to give new orders. And by the time I order the 10th crossbow unit, the first one is just barely starting to fire........now the general will take a near-constant stream of fire over a long period of time, instead of one massive burst from all 10 units at once (which is what I LOVE, and the way any commander would likely want his orders followed.) Is it realistic that your general is not able to order ALL of his archers/xbows to fire on a single target with one flick of his hand, one blurb to his captains? And think of all the times you have to give each missile unit an individual order because on fire-at-will they will refuse to fire on enemy units that are in melee with one of your own. If we're talking 2 or 3 missile units this is no problem, no pausing needed, but sometimes I like using 10-12 missile units. 3) The conditions in a field battle have rapidly changed and I want to put my spear troops in a defensive, semi-octagon formation, with the men on the ends of each individual unit perfectly flush up against the unit next to them, no gaps. I want each one 4 ranks deep, exactly. Is there a single command to do this? No. Would a good general in real battle have a single command to signal his men to do this? Quite possible. If I am trying to do this and the enemy are already very close by, there is NO WAY I'll get all my men in position on time, especially if we're talking like 12 spear units. I pause the game, take my time telling each unit where to go precisely, then unpause, not at all thinking that I somehow cheated. I'm just overcoming the shortcomings of the game. Let me know what ya think? Oh, I know what you mean about people not backing down here, but if you browsed my post history you'd see I've got enough humility to admit when I'm wrong or when my someone's point invalidates mine. Getting at the truth is always more important than being right........unless you're a neocon of course.
To quote a friendly Mongol general: "It does not matter.........who is right........only........who winnnnnsssss!"
daelin4: What do you think makes Hussars (as per your example) so weak right after the charge? Defense rating? I have noticed what you point out, how some cav can take no casualties in a charge against a heavy unit, while sometimes casualties seem high, whether or not you pull out to charge again. Mounted Sergeants I think do just fine against front lines composed of archers. It's spear or infantry I keep them away from. And I do send heavy cavalry to chase routers, not only because I stupidly often forget to bring light cav, but so my heavy cav gain mucho experiencio. And yeah, laggy battles I use pause more as well, I get as low as 3-4 fps when
there's a huge number of units involved.
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Peacemaker EAF92 |
#17 | |||
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To quickly answer your points. It`s all in preperation. Know your keyboard and controls of TW!
Know what you`re facing and prepare beforehand.
1. Well you are correct. You cannot order all towers to fire on indivdiual units at the same time. There is no pre-battle order (there should be) that allows you to target each unit in a siege prebattle with your archers and fire simultaneously. And true, in reality, you could probably do this. My way: You guessed it. I do it manually. before the battle starts I have the archers where I want them, not on fire at will. If I am facing 6 siege engines and have 6 units of archers on battle start I will simply move from unit to unit clicking on the respective siege engine I need targeted. I simply click on each archer unit card to take me there quickly. In sieges I don`t usually have a problem sinec I have my archers firing on time, even if the last unit is a few seconds late. I always have backups ready such as infantry to deal with any who get through. 2. Now on the battlefield it`s a tougher job. I do sometimes get whole flurries of arrows in one go if I group the entire group and simply target the general, which is easy. But having to target individual units takes a little more flexbility. I usually group my units per job at battle start for specific enemy targets. Then order each unit on its task. Once the battle begins I pay much attention to my Unit Card state and move to them as needed. Most battles are not difficulty, but if it`s a huge one, then after the initial battle I will set the archers on Fire at will and skirmish then leave them, returning as I can. This works well. It is not unrealistic either as in a large battle where everything becomes a flow even a real life General will find it hard to keep perfect cohesion of orders and what to target. 3. Especially with a rapidly changing battlefield condition a general does not always have the luxury to get his orders out perfectly to his troops as he wants. You may get your right flank doing what you ordered while the left flank is taking time trying to follow the order. The way I tend to achieve large unit orders is to `lasso` the units I want then using `shift`+ left mouse button place them where I want and in the direction I want on the field ( a ghost image shows you where they will go). The troops immediately start to move to that location and direction. I press `R` if I want them to hurry. While a little slow it feels a lot more real and fluid. Once you`ve done this enough you will learn to give yourself TIME ahead to make the order, like real life battles. Once you get used to this process it`s not as hard as it may seem and neither do you need to be super-fast. What you need on No pause games is to know your enemy`s general composition, where he`s coming from and plan a little ahead before making your orders so you`re in time for the intercept. Oh and knowing the extensive commands of the TW controls mouse and keyboard. My explanation does not really explain what i do in detail as this would be a very, very long post (even longer than yours) as there is much more detail to it than this. I wish I knew how to record battles and put them on Utube and then I`d show you how I do it in real time. One day I will when I can be bothered... or maybe someone shows me how.
Last Edited By: Peacemaker EAF92 12/31/08 05:26:07.
Edited 2 times.
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daelin4 |
#18 | |||
Frank Dale wrote:Hussars have always been terrible at anything other than charging and chasing routers in my experience using them and fighting them. And of course its better to use whatever cavalry on hand to chase down fast routers if no light cavalry is available. Hussars are classified as light cavalry, and have about the same defense as Polish Nobles. They're fast but weak, and trade defense for a good charge. Use them just like knights but never let them get into a melee with units better than peasant units. A nightmare when using Hussars is getting bogged down with anything better. Whenever I foguht against Hussar units they rout incredibly fast when I get them into melee combat. Hussars are basically light cavalry with the same charge ability as heavy cavalry. Just remember they're just as vulnerable as Hobilars and will get torn up fighting anything that fights back |
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Dane324 |
#19 | |||
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Wait for the enemy units to start marching towards you and that is when your cavalry will be the most efficient. They will loosen up so they can march and that
is the time when your cavalry have the most penetrating power on their charge to make the annihilation of a unit complete.
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Frank Dale |
#20 | |||
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Good point Dane324, I have witnessed this many times without realizing it! How far you penetrate can make the difference of your front-line lance-stabbing
rider getting 2 kills or getting 8!
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