Square concerns

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Posts: 55 02/19/09 13:12:46	Tags : cavalry Ok i'm sure you have seen the Superior Tactics 2 video which shows off the defensive capabilitys of the square formation aswell as Mr Lusted's very nice scarf. If you have not seen the video watch it if you have, then here is my worry. An acutal square formation of line infantry is 3 or 4 ranks deep, in the latest video it is 2 ranks deep, this is worrying as the distance between these 2 men looks far too big and so looks very weak. I'm not saying that cavalry could walk straight through but it does look like the men could be pushed aside and the cavarly could charge into the square. So i wonder if the unit had taken losses and so couldn't bring as many ranks to bear as normal or that is going to be the standard arrangement also does the number of men inside the square increase when loses are taken as not to make the sides uneven and will we see the wounded crawl to the center as a final refuge. Oh and on a side note on the video when the winged hussars charge straight into that square it was because that side were reloading and so not presenting bayonets. Your thoughts.......
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roadkill466		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 844 02/19/09 13:19:11	more than one unit can form a square together to make it bigger and stronger
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HarleArmistice		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 99 02/19/09 13:20:48	Also unit sizes will most likely be adjustable as in the previous games, making squares thicker.
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andy3536		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 451 02/19/09 13:23:52	If you look at the battalion square formed in the first video having larger numbers just makes the square bigger while still having troops in ranks of 2. Smaller squares would have been better, but the tactical point was cavalry wouldn't go through the line, if that were still the case it wouldn't have mattered so much. But looking at the vid 2 cavalry can break the square. As to how significant that will be, only time will tell.
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Odin 052		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 290 02/19/09 13:27:04	The above is true ^ (roadkill) In any case, unit formations in Empire are scaled down from their real-life equivalents. The amount of men you would need to form a square 3 or 4 ranks deep (and maintain square with good coverage) are simply not present. Likewise, the cavalry has been scaled down in turn. But as Roadkill stated, multiple units can be combined to form larger squares, which I imagine could be deeper.
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jackobrien		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1096 02/19/09 13:30:04 Tiro	Yeah this is really very simple. As Andy3536 said, you need at least 3 ranks. The first rank presents bayonets, while the other two keep up a steady rolling fire. If you do not have presented bayonets, it is not a square formation, I am sorry. Unit sizes, forming the square with other units etc. are all moot: the bottom line is that everything should be proportional. With 80 men forming a square, or 250, there should be at least 3 ranks, not 2, the numbesr overall do not factor. Also, horsemen do not charge directly into arrayed bayonets, at least not in real life. People can argue till they are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that the infantry square, and the dynamism between it and cavalry, does not seem to be correctly done by CA on both a physics and behavioral level. End of story.
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ace blazer		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3168 02/19/09 13:32:59 Moderator	Well they were winged hussars so they are probably juiced up enough to break a weak square.
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andy3536		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 451 02/19/09 13:33:41	Odin 052 wrote: The above is true ^ (roadkill) In any case, unit formations in Empire are scaled down from their real-life equivalents. The amount of men you would need to form a square 3 or 4 ranks deep (and maintain square with good coverage) are simply not present. Likewise, the cavalry has been scaled down in turn. But as Roadkill stated, multiple units can be combined to form larger squares, which I imagine could be deeper. The above is true? you can't possibly know that, the only time that i can tell that we've seen a larger square was the battalion square which despite having much larger numbers was still only 2 men deep and was still breached by cavalry. Although that being said, i'm not sure how it's gonna effect the game as not seeing real gameplay and no mention of this in the reviews put up you wonder if it's actually rare in the game.
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aeteRnus		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 259 02/19/09 13:33:55	jackobrien wrote: horsemen do not charge directly into arrayed bayonets, at least not in real life Hussars used to regularly do that.
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Skyblaze		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 501 02/19/09 13:35:10	You might be able to adjust the size of the square like any other formation
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andy3536		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 451 02/19/09 13:37:08	aeteRnus wrote: jackobrien wrote: horsemen do not charge directly into arrayed bayonets, at least not in real life Hussars used to regularly do that. Really? It's the horses that want a little self presevation not the courage of the riders that's the issue when charging at square formmations, it's just against everything the horse wants to do.
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Vessinger		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 254 02/19/09 13:38:30	Also keep in mind you can usually increase or decrease a units ranks and formation by holding down your mouse button and drag your mouse, a group of green circles will appear to give you an idea of what your formation will look like, and once you have it the way you like, you release the mouse. Using this method you will likely be able to scale down the size of square and increase the number of troops per rank. Just a theory, based on previous TWgames.
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aeteRnus		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 259 02/19/09 13:40:28	andy3536 wrote: Really? It's the horses that want a little self presevation not the courage of the riders that's the issue when charging at square formmations, it's just against everything the horse wants to do. Horses can be trained, just like the men that ride them. How else would you expect horses to ride up to enemy lines in the face of loud gunfire?
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andy3536		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 451 02/19/09 13:43:00	aeteRnus wrote: andy3536 wrote: Really? It's the horses that want a little self presevation not the courage of the riders that's the issue when charging at square formmations, it's just against everything the horse wants to do. Horses can be trained, just like the men that ride them. How else would you expect horses to ride up to enemy lines in the face of loud gunfire? The only time i've read of horses going through the square is being mortaly wounded and falling through, and the info at wiki supports that theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square Horses can be trained, but not to throw themselves to their death.
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Mr Babbington		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 164 02/19/09 13:44:14	jackobrien wrote: Yeah this is really very simple. As Andy3536 said, you need at least 3 ranks. The first rank presents bayonets, while the other two keep up a steady rolling fire. If you do not have presented bayonets, it is not a square formation, I am sorry. Unit sizes, forming the square with other units etc. are all moot: the bottom line is that everything should be proportional. With 80 men forming a square, or 250, there should be at least 3 ranks, not 2, the numbesr overall do not factor. Also, horsemen do not charge directly into arrayed bayonets, at least not in real life. People can argue till they are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that the infantry square, and the dynamism between it and cavalry, does not seem to be correctly done by CA on both a physics and behavioral level. End of story. Well, its a good thing that the men in the square were presenting their bayonets then. In the video, the hussars charge into men who are reloading, not the ones presenting bayonets. The real problem was that his men were on "fire at will". PS-Question for you: Did you actually watch the video, or do you just like to complain and critique all the time. Not trying to flame you here, but I don't think I have ever seen a post from you that is positive in any way, shape, or form. I'm guessing you only post when you disagree with something. (seriously not flaming you, just curious)
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bangell99		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 785 02/19/09 13:46:55	There were actually a few spare men inside the square...
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jackobrien		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1096 02/19/09 13:48:08 Tiro	Yeah this is one of those things where people start talking out their rears. Look, read up on the history, then come back and show me historic examples of 18th century warfare where squares are smashed by frontal charges as a matter of course. This entire Winged Hussar explanation is so obvious it is funny: in the first video CA had to contend with our dismay over the square-cavalry dynamic. So, instead of showing how they have improved this behavior, they just use an anachronistic unit (Winged Hussars charging with lance are 17th century guys) fighting in an older style to somehow make the behavior look more plausible.
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aeteRnus		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 259 02/19/09 13:48:08	lol, using Wiki as evidence. There are quite a few examples of cavalry succesfully breaking up an infantry square, for example at Waterloo a British regiment of dragoons charged and routed a French Infantry square. But my point was more about the superiority of the Winged Hussars, many of Poland-Lithuania's greatest battles were one by cavalry charges (Vienna, Lubieszow etc).
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jackobrien		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1096 02/19/09 13:50:14 Tiro	Those are 17th century battles. Like I said, anachronistic late medieval/renaissance tactics in an 18th century setting. And duh...of course squares were broken. Stop trying to deliberately misinterpret what I and others are saying. No one here is asinine enough to suggest square were never broken. The idea is that they were not broken by frontal charges into arrayed bayonets. The square would have to lose cohesion, allow a gap to form, or panic to let cavalry in. Last Edited By: jackobrien 02/19/09 13:52:35. Edited 1 time.
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andy3536		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 451 02/19/09 13:50:36	aeteRnus wrote: lol, using Wiki as evidence. There are quite a few examples of cavalry succesfully breaking up an infantry square, for example at Waterloo a British regiment of dragoons charged and routed a French Infantry square. But my point was more about the superiority of the Winged Hussars, many of Poland-Lithuania's greatest battles were one by cavalry charges (Vienna, Lubieszow etc). Quite a few, or very few? It didn't happen all that often at all. Dragoons can fight as infantry aswell, were they dismounted when they broke the square? Have you any evidence? Using wiki is better than nothing at all.
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Vessinger		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 254 02/19/09 13:56:12	Really? It's the horses that want a little self presevation not the courage of the riders that's the issue when charging at square formmations, it's just against everything the horse wants to do. I think you might be giving the horses a little too much credit, after all, I believe there is a reason mountaineers use mules instead of horses, especially along cliffs. Besides, the cavalry are trained warhorses, isn't part of that training desensitizing expressly for breaking them of their natural inclinations, like bucking and trying to run away at the sound of a gun shot for example? If they had any inclination of self preservation they'd bolt at the first loud noise, let alone getting them to charge into the middle of a fray.
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