Square formation and cav charges

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le petit corporal	Square formation and cav charges		Lead	[-]
Posts: 50 04/21/09 04:10:15	Tags : cavalry why is square formation so much better against cav charges then normal line even when front on. the only advantage squares have over normal line vs cav is that a suare cannot be flanked. from front on the suare is actually weaker as it is only two men deep. however even when my infantry is prepared and the enemy is front on i always lose more troops then in a square. the same happens when i am attacking. square formation should be similar to squiltrhim (i think thats how you spell it) from M2 where all it does is spread out your units. maybe troops need some sort of spear wall like abillity that stop them from firing bu makes their defence awesome against head on charges. this has actually been well modelled for pikemen so why not for bayonets. yes iu know it is a rant but it is a problem
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nstutt		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 73 04/21/09 05:20:53	Ask Wellington.
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notger		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 338 04/21/09 05:35:49	It is better because it is nigh impossible to train a horse to charge into a solid mass of people. Especially, when these people have pointy things that can shoot, too. A square is more densely packed than a line. It presents a smaller front side equalling in more soldiers in smaller place. Furthermore it provides a boost of morale (in reality; humans are strange) and a cav charge is all about morale. Squares are quite well modelled in ETW, in my opinion.
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Jerry596182		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 04/21/09 05:56:53	Mutually supporting bayonets-those little spiky things-worry horses and riders. I'm not poking fun at you, it is simply you can't make a horse impale itself on bayonets. The horses would balk before crashing into a square. Line formation is much weaker; men would dodge giving the cavalry the opening they needed. It was extremely rare that a square was broken by cavalry without being either shot to pieces by artillery or musketry or breaking due to moral failure, or horsemen following broken units seeking refuge in another unit's square. In the Peninsular Campaign there are many accounts of squares retreating for miles while harassed by swarms of cavalry. A famous example of an intact square breaking had a French cav unit charging a British square, the lead horsemen and horse being shot and the momentum carrying the horse and rider into the square side scattering the troops allowing the following French riders to enter and start the slaughter. If you're looking for good info on this subject look at Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" series of historical novels. .
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Clover Long		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1391 04/21/09 06:36:06	It's the same principle theory as Chilton's- just shorter pikes. Squares are impossible to outflank- while cavalry would always ride around the flanks of a line formation and attack from the rear- where men could not mass enough bayonets quickly enough to ward off a charge. In the game- the effectiveness of double layer- multi ranked short "spears" are represented by a boost in attack and defence against cavalry in square- i think you get a +4 bonus to each- but still..i think squares are poorly done to be honest, i think they should be tighter- hence smaller.
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GeneralStupidity		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 04/21/09 07:08:26	Take advantage of the games idiocy by only going into square once the cavalry have engaged your infantry and watch how quickly 160 line infantry can kill 60 cavalry. I counted a few seconds before they rout.
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Phalanyxx		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 472 04/21/09 07:12:22	Part of the problem IMO is the fact that cavalry units in Vanilla are so small. While its true cavalry didnt have the same effect during the Empire Era they had in previous TW games, I feel the cavalry in Empire could use more men. At least when the AI are using them. I seem to do fine with my cav, and tend to route enemy cavalry easily.
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andyman8		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 85 04/21/09 08:18:39	According to what I've seen, there are only about 3 incidents in history where cavalry broke a square. These only happened because someone killed a horse, and its forward momentum fell caused it to fall into the square, breaking up the formation and causing an opening. In fact, the foot soldiers were trained NOT to shoot the horses when in square because the one thing that would break it is the dead weight of a horse being propelled into the square. Otherwise, the horses will pull up short and dump their riders into the sharp, pokey things. Unfortunately, squares seem to act like magnets for the battle AI cavalry...Try this...wait till cavalry is charging your line and set a nearby unit to square, and the cavalry will swerve to hit it instead...lol Also, I agree that you should not be able to form square while engaged in melee. Its all about the timing, cuz you don't want to be in square with the artillery pounding you. Last Edited By: andyman8 04/21/09 08:21:50. Edited 1 time.
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overdrivenimbecile		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 454 04/21/09 12:07:52	Whilst the square being stronger thing is correct, it is indeed the line that is incorrect. A cavalry charge would never take a fully formed line front on. In game doing so will often break the enemy infantry, but in life cavalry never charged the front of a fully formed line of infantry. They only charged infantry that was either disorganised or engaged frontally by infantry.
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the dude abides		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 04/21/09 14:03:51	Additionally you should be able to form your entire army into a square formation and march as often happened during that period and right up until the boar war. I have read accounts (in one particular instance during the zulu wars (I know much later)) of the final army to attack the zulu capital choral marching the last few miles into battle with the infantry forming the outer square and the guns and cavalry in the centre. the square could open at any side to allow the cavalry to enter and exit the square to attack the enemy when it was most effective and retire when hard pressed. I believe the account was in a book call "washing of the spears". One major problem with forming square formations in ETW is the rate at which units in close formation will kill each other blue on blue because they are too stupid not to shoot at each other if a enemy unit passed between them.
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TheEnd		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 179 04/21/09 14:11:55	You can put cannons in the middle and they can't be flanked.
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the dude abides		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 04/21/09 14:21:13	TheEnd wrote: You can put cannons in the middle and they can't be flanked. in one of those tiny squares, wouldn't they blow my own men to pieces as they seem to try and do at every available occasion. I'm talking of combining multiple infantry units into a marching square.
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RJcfc		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 926 04/21/09 14:29:39	in one of those tiny squares, wouldn't they blow my own men to pieces as they seem to try and do at every available occasion. I'm talking of combining multiple infantry units into a marching square. Squares were much larger (in real life) than what is represented in Empire.
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TheEnd		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 179 04/21/09 14:33:19	the dude abides wrote: TheEnd wrote: You can put cannons in the middle and they can't be flanked. in one of those tiny squares, wouldn't they blow my own men to pieces as they seem to try and do at every available occasion. I'm talking of combining multiple infantry units into a marching square. The smallest square formation would have at least 500 men.
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the dude abides		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 04/21/09 14:42:31	TheEnd wrote: the dude abides wrote: TheEnd wrote: You can put cannons in the middle and they can't be flanked. in one of those tiny squares, wouldn't they blow my own men to pieces as they seem to try and do at every available occasion. I'm talking of combining multiple infantry units into a marching square. The smallest square formation would have at least 500 men. I'm saying it should also be possible in the game, I agree with what your saying regarding the historical context. I'm sure they could include it as one of the formation buttons following some reseach point and include a movement and speed penalty.
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ace blazer		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3168 04/21/09 15:03:04 Moderator	Squares are definitely not well modelled in ETW. I can't imagine such flimsy 2 deep squares being used in real life. The square needs to be a more solid mass. Unfortunately this is all the game can allow. Also squares in the game break too often but to counter this there is an anti-cav bonus when infantry are in squares. Breaking squares should be the exception, not the rule; if it happens the unit should basically collapse.
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LukeG		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 299 04/21/09 17:03:57	I think the calvalry should vear of to the sides of the square when charging it. cause not many horses would oblige into running into a mass of pointy sticks
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DarkShandi		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 397 04/21/09 17:57:27	At the end of the day the square formation was extremely powerful at combating cavalry attacks. Horses would not charge into a massed of men and bayonets. The number of times cavalry broke well formed squares is a very small number. Squares were only broken due to poor quality troops or freak events. Ask yourself, how could it be that 10,000 french cavalry could not break one square at Waterloo. Not one. The game, in its fashion, makes squares very powerful anti-cavalry. Thats the way it should be. A line formation allows cavalry to get in behind the infantry and disrupt the formation. I believe the morale hit for having cavalry inside your ranks should be huge and would break all but the best infantry. Poor quality infantry were know to break when just under threat from cavalry - not even engaged.
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Daniel Boone		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 186 04/21/09 20:14:24	One major problem with forming square formations in ETW is the rate at which units in close formation will kill each other blue on blue because they are too stupid not to shoot at each other if a enemy unit passed between them. Someone posted in a different thread that friendly fire doesn't occur between units of the same group. If he is correct you could just put all your infantry units in the same area in a group and they won't kill each other.
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ace blazer		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3168 04/21/09 21:10:34 Moderator	Friendly fire does occur from crossfire I believe, although it's hard to pick it up. Usually the only way to beat a square was artillery. Unfortunately this isn't modelled in the game as artillery is way to inaccurate.
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RotorFlyer		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 48 04/21/09 22:03:21	Don't put your cannon in the square , they will kill you own men. That is one of the issues I am have now is that the cannon will fire into or onto your own men while trying to kill just a few of the enemy.
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